I was listening to Freethought Radio’s most recent podcast this morning, and Christopher Hitchens was the guest. Turns out he’s doing a column in Vanity Fair in April on the topic of the Ten Commandments and Rechelle, sounds like his ideas are very much in line with yours. Be sure to get a copy in April!

What if we’re all wrong.

God exists but he’s not using religions as we know them because they aren’t following him at all.

Just a thought.

http://exfundy.wordpress.com/

This guy is also a thoughtful writer:

http://thebeattitude.com/

It’s not really about whether the church is built on a lie. It is the *idea* of funnelling so much money into an organization that spends it mostly on maintaining itself, when it *could* have been donated to people in need.

You’ve listed a bunch of things you do to help others. Try adding it up. Do you spend more or less on these things combined (both in terms of time and money) than you do on your church?

Anyway, remember that the point I was making, and to which you’re responding is not that “Christians are bad people”, but simply “what if you’re wrong”. (I never accused anyone of hating homosexuals either, I just said that Rechelle had mentioned it in an earlier post, and it is one way in which *some* Christians might do harm if it turns out they’re wrong)

If you’re wrong, you’ll still have done all the good things you’ve mentioned, but you’ll have *also* poured so much money, time and effort into a lie. Time and money that could have been spent elsewhere. Either on yourself or on others.

My point was really just how much you’ll have wasted, in terms of both time and money, if it turns out in the end that God doesn’t exist.

It seems to me that Christians have at least as much at stake as atheists, if it turns out they’re wrong in their beliefs. If I’m wrong, God might punish me personally. If you’re wrong, you’ll have spent a large amount of resources on a lie, when they could have been spent helping yourself or others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbcS234hvQc

I’m confused about some of your comments. I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from, but on 2/21 2:53am you said:
“I went thru a period of questioning also (d/t some fellow “Christian” behavior) and it was one of the toughest periods in my life. Thankfully, I am on the other side and I am actually thankful it happened. The situation made me much stronger in my relationship with Jesus and much wiser about humanity.”
Then on 2/21 7:35pm you said:
” Like you, after I let go of god, I became a more tolerant and better human being with more appreciation of this life. I have no problem knowing that this is all I get. As a child i was terrified of heaven because it sounded super boring and there was absolutely no end to it. I imagined an eternity of sitting in an elaborate church telling god how great he is : ) ”
And your last comment reccomend CS Lewis and ends with “God bless.”
Are there two Lori’s? Or do you mind clarifying, because I’m trying to understand. Thanks.

Thanks for your willingness to “spar” in this. I love a good debate! :)
Just to hit a few points in your post… I feel my tithe (which I choose to give willingly) is given to the Lord (oh boy, I can feel the heat already that I am going to get for that one). Like any non-profit organization, once the money is given they are responsible to be wise with it. Some churches are built on a lie but not all. Heck, I have known some Christians that lie. But not all do. I do hope I spread happiness and do useful things. I just did a walk for homeless women and children and you know what? I left my big, ginormous coffee table Bible at home. I guess I just didn’t feel like thumping anyone with it… I take meals to people in need (and they don’t even go to my church! What AM I thinking??), I adopted a dog from the animal shelter, I bake cookies for the neighborhood kids. I know, I know. I am a crazy terrible person. It’s that darn Christianity coming out….My Bible states that I am to treat others like I want to be treated, love my neighbor as myself, the greatest of these is love and much, much more. And for the record, I don’t hate homosexuals. And I have a feeling Jesus doesn’t either. As much as Christians make assumptions about Atheists, it seems just as many assumptions are made about Christians. Don’t get me wrong, some things we christians do are pretty blatantly stupid. Um, like attempting to smuggle kids out of Haiti?? Dumb, dumb, dumb. Preachers who commit adultery, Christians who gossip. The list could go on and on. But does that mean I turn my back on Jesus?? I feel following Jesus makes me a better person. Not better than anyone else, just a better Lori… I really think you should check out CS Lewis. I think you would get a kick out of his writing style and what he has to say. God bless.

I think that you are right, there would be less wars excused by “God is on our side” if everyone was atheist. I think that religions in general tend to be hand in glove with political movers/big business. It’s so much easier to wage a war when you’ve got religion giving the masses the “go-ahead” by blessing the troops, isn’t it?

That having been said, I have a feeling that taking religion completely out of the equation would only go so far. There would be some other political excuse to wage a war….nationalism runs deep. Patriotic fervor gets intense. And might makes right wins the day. Weapons of Mass Destruction seemed like a good idea, too. Sigh. So while I point the finger at religion myself….I think we’d still have to deal with the whole war thing even w/out religion. Unless everyone just played Gandhi. Or Jesus.(as historical figure) They had some choice opportunities to get politically involved in war and they didn’t go there. Maybe if religion and individuals “just didn’t go there” we’d have an end to war.
Wait, Wait!! I feel a John Lennon song coming on!!

Whereas to an atheist, well, it’s nothing personal. We’re talking about a god who may or may not exist, not the individual Christian we’re debating with. It’s easy to forget that the other person identifies so closely with the subject matter. Of course, no offense is typically intended, but it might be perceived differently.

Anyway, you’re right, condescending or judgmental statements don’t really belong here (or anywhere else, for that matter), which goes for both sides.

About the prison statistics, I did a bit more reading on it when I first found the numbers, and apparently it’s not quite as clear cut. The numbers are from a single survey, in which the prisoners were simply asked what they believed. And it was speculated that the numbers may have been biased by atheists being frightened of their religious inmates finding out that they’re atheists. So it is possible that the difference isn’t quite as big as those numbers suggest.

But yes, more reliable or detailed data would definitely be interesting.

@Maria: “However, am I to conclude (being unfamiliar with atheism as a whole) that atheists do not go to war? Are conscientious objectors??”
I think the point is simply that there’d be *fewer* wars if atheism was the norm, because one of the most common reasons for wars has been that it is “God’s will”.
Of course, wars might still be started over land, over cultural differences or a number of other reasons, but one of the more popular justifications would be gone, and so we’d get rid of *some* wars. Better than nothing. ;)

I’d love to believe that atheists as a whole are just more peaceful, and it generally fits with my own experience, but I don’t really have any hard data on it.

But if everyone were atheists, it would put an abrupt end to *some* wars at least. Think of how much simpler the middle east situation would become if religious differences didn’t separate Israel from their neighbors. If they all want to control the same holy city purely for religious reasons.

But meanwhile, I am following this conversation with some interest. I’m still suck way up on the comments about wars in the name of religion. Amen (no pun) to that! Could not agree more. And I also agree with the argument stated that wars were done in the NAME of religion/God. It’s abhorrent. However, am I to conclude (being unfamiliar with atheism as a whole) that atheists do not go to war? Are conscientious objectors?? That we would have less war? Or just less war blamed on God??

Thoughts??